Max4Live unable to change Guitar Rig Preset (though BMT can do it via MIDI)

I use BMT to control all aspects of my Ableton Live sets. I noticed, on the Ableton site, a M4L device (Kapture) that takes a snapshot of all parameters at any one moment in a performance. That snapshot can be recalled, putting the Live set in exactly the same state as it was when the snapshot was taken.

It works beautifully, and allows me to follow my whims when playing, and if things get out of hand, return to a “sane” state.

One problem, though. Kapture can “capture” and reinstate all my plugin presets with one exception: Guitar Rig. I can do preset changes for GR with MIDI program changes sent via BMT, but not with Kapture. Unfortunately, Kapture is no longer supported by Ableton (though it’s still available for download) and the original developer (liine in cooperation with Richie Hawtin) doesn’t support it either.

I’ve never done M4L programming, and the prospect of finding a solution without guidance is daunting. I wonder if anyone on this forum has experience with M4L, and could give me some advice. I guess what I’d be looking for is the “handle” by which M4L registers plugins in Ableton, and allows for program changes. I’ve tried the Cycling74 forum, but haven’t gotten helpful advice there.
Thanks,
Gabriel

Hi, are all your other plugins VST2. I know that VST2 generally handles MIDI but the interface between a host and a VST3 Plugin is different and may not handle MIDI. If there is a VST2 version of GR, you might give that a try.

Steve Caldwell
Bome Customer Care


Also available for paid consulting services: bome@sniz.biz

Hi Steve,
I think most or all of my VSTs are VST2. I understand that G(R6 is VST3, but GR5 which I also have, reacts (or should I say, doesn’t react) in the same way. Doesn’t respond to program changes if it’s Kapture that tries to send the changes via Max4Live. Both GR5 and GR6 respond to normal MIDI program changes.

Hi Gabriel,

I’m not sure how to deal with this from a Bome Perspective. I know that Gig Performer is a program that works heavily with VST’s and the guys over there tell me not to try and rely on the plugins for Program changes. They actually use rackspaces to keep different snapshots of values for various plugins. Then switching rackspaces or rackspace variations takes car of things without relying on the plugin switching itself. Gig Performer remember the setting. I think they may a free trial copy if you want to play around with it.

Of course as an Ableton Live user, I’m not sure how much this would help as for this type of application, you would probably either use Ableton Live or Gig Performer but not both since they are both VST hosts.

Steve Caldwell
Bome Customer Care


Also available for paid consulting services: bome@sniz.biz

It looks like core of the Max4Live script is done in JavaScript. Guitar Rig has about 256 parameters so maybe it is more than the script can handle or they are calling the parameters by name instead of parameter number. The names seem to change depending on the plugins that are in a given rack.

Steve

Hi Gabriel,

I was able to capture some snapshots. I had to first to to MIDI learn then moved the controls I wanted to snapshot and then they appeared on the right. Anything I had had moved was captured.

I didn’t have to actually MIDI learn the controls, rather just move the appropriate control while in learn mode.

Not the controls on the right of the black box that where added when moving a given control while Ableton Live was in MIDI learn mode.

Steve Caldwell
Bome Customer Care


Also available for paid consulting services: bome@sniz.biz

Hi Steve,
Kapture is a tempting little program isn’t it? Yes… you have the basics right… and indeed it does do snapshots correctly and does restore the snapshots as promised.

My problem is that everything EXCEPT Guitar Rig 6 responds as it should. All program changes are implemented - but sadly, not for Guitar Rig 6.
Other than that, all continuous controller parameters are restored to snapshot values

I think I’m going to give up on Kapture. There are clumsy workarounds for the Guitar Rig problem, but now that I’m working with a full Live set, I’m finding that it takes more than 7 minutes to load the set. Even that would be workable, except for live performance. There, if a crash should occur or if I had to shut down and restart due to a controller losing communication with BMT, 7 minutes would be waaaay to long.

If anyone else is tempted to use Kapture as a result of seeing this thread, I’d say go ahead and try it. It could really be a tremendous help for performance.
Thanks for your attention.
Gabriel

Ah, so it is just program changes that don’t work with GR6. Yes, I found the same issue.

Steve Caldwell
Bome Customer Care


Also available for paid consulting services: bome@sniz.biz

The solution for me, up till now, has been the normal way to do it…to send program changes to a MIDI track which then relays the program change to an audio track containing Guitar Rig. It works, but I wanted the snapshot function that Kapture affords.

I’m now setting up a different way to get program changes… you mentioned this in this thread, I think. I have a rack with 16 instances of GR6 and use the chain selector to select among the presets. No snapshots but a straightforward way to do preset selection. It is a memory hog though. In my case, I have about 16 tracks that have a copy of that effects rack with 16 instantiations of GR. As you can imagine, it maxes out my memory. Strangely, though I nearly max out the 16Gb in my laptop when I load the Live set, over time, the memory used seems to drop really a lot. 15.2 Gb used when I first load the set. After playing a while, and maybe just letting Live sit there unused while i take care of something else… now 3.7Gb. Looks like a lot is being cached.

The new macro variations facility in Live does provide the same functionality as snapshots, but when it comes to a plugin which uses many different modules in a preset, it’s not useful. Macro variations do work for plugins like straight reverbs or delays etc which use one algorithm and utilize parameters within that algorithm to create different presets.

Anyway,
Thanks again for the interest you’ve showed in my sad sad tale,
Gabriel
P.S. Even though I have this thread marked as “Watching”, I’m not getting notifications. Do you have any idea why that is?
g

I’m not sure. It works for me. Please check your SPAM folder.

Steve Caldwell
Bome Customer Care


Also available for paid consulting services: bome@sniz.biz